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Official TBA StarCraft II Thread

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Offline psi43
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« Reply #160 on: October 21, 2011 10:20 PM »
i think it's pretty goddamn stupid to be saying what units will and won't work in multiplayer when we have hardly even seen them in action. only time will tell if they serve an important role as they are introduced to the metagame. all this theorycrafting bullshit and whining is just a symptom of people spending too much time on the bnet forums. just be happy they are even adding new units to multiplayer.

fu i never go to the bnet forums

also im extremely excited for all of those units tbh. I'm sure even the less-useful ones will find a pretty solid role to fill within a few months (like the hellion, in the beginning it wasn't really used to fry workers early on but as time passed, people figured out that was a pretty neat thing to do i.e. fu terran).

e. you should be able to instant-kill a unit by pulling it into 2 different directions at the same time
« Last Edit: October 21, 2011 10:34 PM by psi »

Offline Sinitron
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« Reply #161 on: October 21, 2011 11:03 PM »
but the whole point is that very few of these are even new, they're just removing sub-optimal units and replacing them with similar units which are rehashes of other old units instead and passing them off as NEW and IMPROVED when they're not that interesting

a lot of the game revolves around unit synergy, and the shredder as an example doesn't even work when friendly units are in the vicinity

you can also bet your ass you will be seeing a lot of colossus/tempest balls splashing the crap out of everything

Offline Sinitron
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« Reply #162 on: October 21, 2011 11:04 PM »
e. you should be able to instant-kill a unit by pulling it into 2 different directions at the same time

this would be pretty silly, tearing colossi in half

Offline psi43
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« Reply #163 on: October 21, 2011 11:27 PM »
but the whole point is that very few of these are even new, they're just removing sub-optimal units and replacing them with similar units which are rehashes of other old units instead and passing them off as NEW and IMPROVED when they're not that interesting

a lot of the game revolves around unit synergy, and the shredder as an example doesn't even work when friendly units are in the vicinity

you can also bet your ass you will be seeing a lot of colossus/tempest balls splashing the crap out of everything

so what if the units are "re-hashed" (what i don't agree with to be honest, the viper doesn't have a SINGLE thing in common with the BW queen, neither do the new protoss flyers have anything in common with the corsair). They'll still change up the gameplay and eventually make a lot of things more interesting.

As for the "doesn't work when friendly units are in range" well what do you expect? If that were the case, terrans could just go all out, build enough of those things to connect their base with the enemies base, mass marines and win every single game. It's not an offensive unit, it's a unit that will buy you time when you're getting attacked from several sides.

edit; oh and as far as the deathball goes, that depends on how much the tempest costs and how much food it takes up. I actually can't see that happening cause it's a strong tier 3 unit, so it will take up more than enough food to make a deathball like that pretty much useless if you confront it with just a few infestors with NP.


ps. i was more thinking about tearing the new thor in half, that'd be worth the 700 minerals lmao
« Last Edit: October 21, 2011 11:29 PM by psi »

Offline Sinitron
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« Reply #164 on: October 21, 2011 11:48 PM »
the viper is a flying caster, like the queen, which can grant detection to friendly units which isn't too far off from the original parasite ability

the corsair was an anti-light AA splash unit with strong abilities which could disable ground units, it was replaced by the phoenix which was also given the scout's speed
the new units, the oracle and the tempest, gain the disabling abilites and AA splash of the corsair, but spread out to both, while the tempest's 'strong beam attack' sounds a lot like the void ray (unless it's an ability like yamato)
in the end, all the protoss air units sort of overlap in one way or another instead of each being unique

the shredder is just weird, unless it can kill whole armies (not likely) it's not very good for defense since it doesn't work in conjunction with other defenses like bunkers, turrets, tanks or planetaries, so it would have to be placed further away from the base where it could more easily be picked off or smashed by a deathball, it really seems like something that wouldn't be too bad on a lot of maps with multiple paths but it just doesn't seem like a very good idea for defense, whereas dropping and deploying it in a mineral line is more likely to yield beneficial results

Offline Sinitron
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« Reply #165 on: October 22, 2011 12:19 AM »
oh and as far as the deathball goes, that depends on how much the tempest costs and how much food it takes up. I actually can't see that happening cause it's a strong tier 3 unit, so it will take up more than enough food to make a deathball like that pretty much useless if you confront it with just a few infestors with NP.

All protoss units are expensive and take long to produce though, eschewing a few voids or stalkers for a tempest or two probably wouldn't make too much of a difference. NP range got nerfed, but you could probably handle it better with a combination of infestors and vipers to ensnare and mind control units. With the APM to support it, that would probably be really infuriating for opponents. Then again, you could just use the vipers new dark swarm ability (I forgot to say it also has defiler abilities) and piss all over everything. Hey, at least Zerg can't whine about Ravens anymore, unless the Viper gets some serious nerfs before release or the nature of dark swarm is altered, Zerg is going back to Brood War easy-mode and Protoss will be just as useless as before.

Offline Sinitron
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« Reply #166 on: October 22, 2011 12:38 AM »
according to some team liquid polls, the zerg units are popular, people are torn on the protoss units, while the new terran units are generally disliked

this makes sense seeing as zerg gets seemingly good units (at first glance if nothing else), protoss has some shitty units replaced with most likely somewhat less shitty ones, while terran mech is completely reworked which may or may not be a good thing

the replicant can be used to clone workers and create off-race bases

in addition to destructible rocks, there are now also collapsible rocks, which can work as a defensive measure as they close off paths (DUSTIN BROWDER GAY MAN)

Offline Gladius
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« Reply #167 on: October 22, 2011 02:53 AM »
(DUSTIN BROWDER GAY MAN)

NO FUCK YOU
▬ஜ۩☆۩ஜ▬ ---★☆★☆★ DONALD TRUMP 2016 ★☆★☆★--- ▬ஜ۩☆۩ஜ▬

Offline rtil
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« Reply #168 on: October 22, 2011 03:24 AM »
but the whole point is that very few of these are even new, they're just removing sub-optimal units and replacing them with similar units which are rehashes of other old units instead and passing them off as NEW and IMPROVED when they're not that interesting

a lot of the game revolves around unit synergy, and the shredder as an example doesn't even work when friendly units are in the vicinity

you can also bet your ass you will be seeing a lot of colossus/tempest balls splashing the crap out of everything
who gives a shit if they're not new? many rts units have borrowed concepts from similar units in the same line of games and playstyles, and they do it because it works.

you're just looking at the units in all the wrong ways. shredder is clearly an area denial unit, really more of a weapon. i could see plenty of uses for it. it's not meant to wipe out entire armies or travel with armies, that's obviously not what they designed it for, so why would you criticize it for a role it's not meant to play?

Offline Sinitron
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« Reply #169 on: October 22, 2011 05:52 AM »
so? that still doesn't mean the swarm host isn't just a shittier lurker and protoss air units lack defined and distinct roles

the shredder has to be damn good at area denial because it has no place in a conventional army

sure, it can be used to deny various paths, prevent flanking or park in mineral lines for maximum anger and hatred, but it is still a one-trick pony - if it can't actually kill anything, why bother getting a shredder over a siege tank? it's a really stupid concept and sounds fucking terrible on paper, unless it shits rainbows and turns enemies into homosexual unicorns it's going to end up like the sensor tower because its inability to work in conjunction with other units is an extreme drawback

people who have played HotS at blizzcon are also uniformly negative towards the warhound too, because it has an overspecialized ground attack and the air attack has less range and damage than the thor's AA, in addition to being squishier, it doesn't round out the factory selection with decent AA and flexibility like people have been asking for and instead

the only thing that's not to like about the current thor is the shitty special and vulnerability to feedback, people are confused because it's essentially being turned into a massive short-ranged siege tank and being replaced by a unit which is weaker in the areas they wanted the thor to be stronger

lets face it, AA splash = anti mutalisk, but the ground attack is anti-mechanical... and guess which race has no mechanical units?

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« Reply #170 on: October 22, 2011 06:21 AM »
i watched some clips of the units in action, and idk about the shredder, apparently multiple of them can stack together or something? like, their attack doesn't affect other shredders so it's possible to have a couple of them bunched up and they don't do too bad, but that still means you need small groups of them and they're not exactly cheap in addition to not having the best range in the world, so i doubt they will be replacing siege tanks as a staple of terran play

it would also be easy to pick them off with stalkers and just blink to safety once shields get low

the viper also makes marines obsolete since they cover terran blobs with shit clouds so their guns don't work

Offline Crabarms
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« Reply #171 on: October 22, 2011 06:36 AM »
I was a bit skeptical when SC2 was coming out I was really disappointed with the changes and removal of some units but I liked the game better than I thought i would. But I don't see how removing units in an expansion is really necessary. I could understand maybe making units a bit better or adjusted to be weaker, those kind of changes are to be expected but its just very uncomfortable to think they planned for 2 expansions and don't seem quite sure how to balance the game and just decide to throw units away. But still a bit too early and they have a while before anything is final.

I

Offline psi43
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« Reply #172 on: October 22, 2011 09:57 AM »
i watched some clips of the units in action, and idk about the shredder, apparently multiple of them can stack together or something? like, their attack doesn't affect other shredders so it's possible to have a couple of them bunched up and they don't do too bad, but that still means you need small groups of them and they're not exactly cheap in addition to not having the best range in the world, so i doubt they will be replacing siege tanks as a staple of terran play

it would also be easy to pick them off with stalkers and just blink to safety once shields get low

the viper also makes marines obsolete since they cover terran blobs with shit clouds so their guns don't work

oh yeah i was about to mention that dark swarm thing, the viper's dark swarm just turns ranged into melee units, the defiler's dark swarm was basically like the PDD or Guardian Shield.

also i can see the shredder being used early on to deny zerg expansions quite easily cause slings and pretty much any other zerg unit would have problems with that. Aside from maybe roaches but that would force you to go roaches then.

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« Reply #173 on: October 22, 2011 10:08 AM »
the shredder is apparently a factory unit though, and not particularily speedy, hellions will still be king for map control vs zerg

Offline rtil
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« Reply #174 on: October 22, 2011 01:00 PM »
why would terran needs a better answer to mutalisks when they have the best static AA defense and the best mutalisk counter for the cost (marines)

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« Reply #175 on: October 22, 2011 03:23 PM »
shredder drops into mineral lines

mother of god

Offline Sinitron
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« Reply #176 on: October 22, 2011 09:40 PM »
why would terran needs a better answer to mutalisks when they have the best static AA defense and the best mutalisk counter for the cost (marines)

uh ok let me summarize for you

- vipers can fly
- vipers have dark swarm
- dark swarm makes marines melee units
- vipers + mutas = marines are obsolete

happy? plus the point isn't that terran needs better AA, the point is that the warhound is worse than the thor at it while the thor is never going to see the light of day in any semi-competetive situation again

the warhound is also only good for countering mutalisks in TvZ, since its anti-mech attack is poor against bio units - they're replacing a slow and expensive but all-around unit with a faster and cheaper but over-specialized unit

it's not even as cool as the thor or bw goliath so what the fuck is even the point!!

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« Reply #177 on: October 22, 2011 09:49 PM »
you're theorycrafting about units that aren't even in beta yet.. i just don't get the point of complaining when they even said they have a lot of playtesting still to do. yeah, marines are useless in that green cloud. so you stim away from it, suddenly those mutas aren't so scary anymore.

but really if you hate it so much , maybe you can just go play with the brood war purists so you have nothing to whine about.

Offline Sinitron
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« Reply #178 on: October 22, 2011 10:03 PM »
uh i could see vipers making marines useless in videos, couldn't i? that's not theorycrafting, but hey completely miss the point and change the focus to the zerg units which i don't give a shit about since they're not completely awful and i'll find a way to kill them anyway, the problem is the warhound being shit and the shredder is a gimmick, though at least the shredder's future is in the balance after it was used to obliterate a bunch of mineral lines and dustin browder realized that oops maybe this WAS a bad idea

oh well at least they're going to remove fungal if they keep dark swarm

i mean

pff

dark swarm and the fungal shit

nah that would be way too overpowered there's no way they can keep both

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« Reply #179 on: October 22, 2011 10:16 PM »
you saw a video where marines on hold position just stood there and let banelings kill them under the cloud. no decent terran player would let that happen.