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Official TBA StarCraft II Thread

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Offline cipher
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« Reply #460 on: February 10, 2012 08:45 PM »



Replacing Xel'naga Caverns and Arid Plateau if I'm not mistaken

They seem interesting, but hard to tell until I've tried them (which may not be for a while)

Offline rtil
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« Reply #461 on: February 11, 2012 12:42 AM »
more queens and spores then, unless you plan on using those hydras before the colossus come out

Offline Sinitron
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« Reply #462 on: February 11, 2012 05:50 AM »
mules on gold, don't give a fuck about this as i need mostly gas, not minerals, for my mech armies

snipe nerf might be a little too extreme, maybe if it was +light instead of psionic since EMP counters the shit out of anything psionic already and it would make ghosts more effective in the early game vs marines and stuff like that, or maybe a negative bonus vs massive as opposed to just a bonus vs anything else, the whole point was that mass snipe allowed terran to counter zerg tech switches more effectively but i guess the PROS will just have to get better at switching add-ons

snipe already kind of sucked though because it was such a huge APM drain but hey at least now it's not like they can nerf the ghost any further or whatever

idk how the phoenix range upgrade will affect TvP but my thors still outrange them to whatever

apm change is fine now the world can finally see my 600+ apm as i switch nonstop between the cc and barracks in the beginning waiting for one or the other to finish or whatever the fuck i'm doing

Offline Sinitron
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« Reply #463 on: February 11, 2012 05:53 AM »
more queens and spores then, unless you plan on using those hydras before the colossus come out

considering it's the fleet beacon he would either be committing to air or just not get the upgrade early on so you'd be able to have corruptors out to handle it, which i believe have 6-7 range but phoenixes do crap damage to them while corruptors do ok volleys against everything and they kick the shit out of carriers so he won't get much joy out of his dumbass fleet beacon anyway (it's also necessary to unlock air upgrades)

Offline Sinitron
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« Reply #464 on: February 11, 2012 05:56 AM »
as for the new maps, i can bunker expand on them which is acceptable and if those xel'naga towers are where i think they are it should be easy enough to hold down the third too with a couple tanks and turrets

Offline psi43
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« Reply #465 on: February 11, 2012 07:39 AM »
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/4448820/Situation_Report_Patch_143-2_10_2012#blog

Phoenix now has a range upgrade at the Fleet Beacon

In the past, we’ve discussed whether protoss needed a more immediate change to give them additional ways of dealing with mutalisks in PvZ, or whether it was more appropriate to make changes to that matchup in Heart of the Swarm. After investigating, testing, and reviewing both community and pro feedback, we’ve decided to include a change in this patch.

I always considered blink stalker to be quite effective against muta actually + it would make more sense to get blink stalker instead of phoenix because they are more versatile. we'll see how this pans out tho.

also the new maps actually look nice. I like the choke points on the naturals.

Offline Sinitron
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« Reply #466 on: February 11, 2012 08:25 AM »
blink stalkers are countered by speedlings which is the most common unit to mix in with mutas

zealot/templar/phoenix would be more ideal since you can respond faster and storm stacked mutas + get archons

phoenixes are also good for harass

Offline BluPhoenix
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« Reply #467 on: February 11, 2012 08:41 AM »
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Offline Gladius
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« Reply #468 on: February 11, 2012 11:42 AM »
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Offline rtil
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« Reply #469 on: February 11, 2012 01:31 PM »
I always considered blink stalker to be quite effective against muta actually + it would make more sense to get blink stalker instead of phoenix because they are more versatile. we'll see how this pans out tho.
anything that can fly is more versatile than something on the ground - especially the phoenix because it is so fast. it can go places stalkers cant.

considering it's the fleet beacon he would either be committing to air or just not get the upgrade early on so you'd be able to have corruptors out to handle it, which i believe have 6-7 range but phoenixes do crap damage to them while corruptors do ok volleys against everything and they kick the shit out of carriers so he won't get much joy out of his dumbass fleet beacon anyway (it's also necessary to unlock air upgrades)
if they're really committing to air i would just rape their base with roaches before they had a considerable air army , while leaving extra queens and spores at home to defend. there's a reason no protoss goes air in zvp, it's the least effective method of dealing with zerg

snipe nerf might be a little too extreme, maybe if it was +light instead of psionic since EMP counters the shit out of anything psionic already and it would make ghosts more effective in the early game vs marines and stuff like that, or maybe a negative bonus vs massive as opposed to just a bonus vs anything else, the whole point was that mass snipe allowed terran to counter zerg tech switches more effectively but i guess the PROS will just have to get better at switching add-ons
why the hell would you snipe a light unit? it's a waste of energy. people will complain now that you can't one shot a baneling with snipe but that was never the point of snipe. the only reason pros were using mass ghost to counter broods and ultras is because it was hilariously op. vikings already hard counter broods and can be massed stupidly fast, and ultras are still pretty much a joke and can die extremely quickly to standard mm+tank. ghosts are most effective for emp and sniping fragile HT and infestors. they're not supposed to be good at killing everything.

Offline psi43
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« Reply #470 on: February 11, 2012 01:47 PM »
I always considered blink stalker to be quite effective against muta actually + it would make more sense to get blink stalker instead of phoenix because they are more versatile. we'll see how this pans out tho.
anything that can fly is more versatile than something on the ground - especially the phoenix because it is so fast. it can go places stalkers cant.

basically what i meant was that with stalkers, you can attack ground and air units. So they can be a game-ending unit, the phoenix is more of a unit to harrass and support vs. air in fights (also defend against air units). But yeah mostly centered around air units, unless your opponent isn't good enough to counter the gravity stuff.

And sinister, blink stalkers are better to defend against muta harrass imo because - once again - you can do more with them. But that's just a personal opinion, when I play toss i prefer to get stalkers to getting phoenixes.

Offline rtil
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« Reply #471 on: February 11, 2012 01:55 PM »
you forget phoenix has graviton beam, so they can attack ground units. they can't do it as effectively as stalkers but it can be deadly in large numbers

Offline cipher
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« Reply #472 on: February 11, 2012 02:43 PM »
you forget phoenix has graviton beam, so they can attack ground units. they can't do it as effectively as stalkers but it can be deadly in large numbers

Yeah that what I was getting at earlier about hydras. A small number of phoenix versus a small number of hydras is fine, but once you get that huge phoenix ball, you'll really need an impractically large amount of hydras to deal with it (and/or other units of course)

Offline Sinitron
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« Reply #473 on: February 13, 2012 12:53 PM »
snipe is a waste of energy against casters when you have EMP, and if you think it's possible to make vikings anywhere near as fast as you can make corruptors you're really bad at zerg macro and/or scouting (plus, at 0/0 with no micro, corruptors come out ahead anyway - vikings win at 3/3 if you don't use corruption, and only truly come out ahead with tons of stutterstepping)

you also need several ghosts to snipe down an ultra, so in pure resources ghosts aren't that efficient either as 2 ghosts already cost 100 more minerals - marauders/viking is also not very optimal versus zerg since tanks counter roaches anyway and vikings are so-so against zerg air, the only time you would make marauders is if there's some weird roach rush or whatever incoming

snipe adds versatility to ghosts since they're essentially an anti-caster unit, being able to do 45 damage allows for ghost rushing terrans before combat shields, or sniping mutalisks if you prefer bio over mech and thors are unavailable, while also being more mobile than thors - it has little to no use against protoss, merely EMPing high templar is more efficient as you can neutralize whole groups at a time as opposed to just one

ultras are also not a bad unit, they're just really bad at breaking siege lines in chokes (broods do this anyway) and don't have enough armor or splash to really counter marines - if you surround an army in the open and use ultras to spearhead the rest of your army, their performance is acceptable if not ideal

honestly, snipe isn't that great to begin with, and i'd rather see a return of lockdown since blizzard has a hard-on for abilities that ruin micro and it would infuriate protoss to no end when their gay colossusballs end up frozen in their tracks and easy pickings, otherwise they might as well increase ghost base damage since snipe will suck hard if this change passes

someone did suggest making it do more damage, but cost more energy to fire, making it decent against zerg still but not utterly worthless like the +psionic change would make it

Offline Sinitron
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« Reply #474 on: February 13, 2012 01:08 PM »
also tbh 6 range is kind of dumb for phoenixes, i could maybe get +1 or some other minor buff even as an upgrade, but atm it's more like an excuse to force people to make fleet beacons

Offline rtil
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« Reply #475 on: February 13, 2012 02:41 PM »
the fact that people were even sniping ultras with ghosts was a testament to how overpowered snipe was, because that was never the intent of snipe. and brood lords were being taken down even quicker to the point where there was no point in making them vs late game terran as they had 1 hard counter and 2 powerful ground counters (marines and ghosts).

no need to rush ghosts , as you said they're an anti-caster unit and the balance team is balancing them to fit their role accordingly. EMP was nerfed and while it might be nice to land an EMP on some HTs, infestors are too large and an EMP wont hit very many of them. a couple of cloaked ghosts could easily kill a ton of ht or infestors with a few snipes and suddenly you've solved your caster problem much quicker as the units are outright dead instead of lacking some energy they'll restore later.

pros snipe caster units all the time with ghosts - just because you dont do it doesnt mean that's not what they were intended to be there for.

saying that vikings wont do well vs broods because there will be corruptors is stupid. most of those corruptors are being turned into brood lords. corruptors are expensive and the zerg also needs a ground army to defend the brood lords from being flanked and attacked by ground forces. vikings can easily outnumber corruptors and can honestly ignore the corruptors while they 1-shot every brood lord out of the sky , fulfilling their only useful purpose while the corruptors shit dps attempts to swat them out of the sky. point being that brood lords already have a hard enough time existing in tvz, they dont need another way they can be easily destroyed.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2012 02:43 PM by rtil »

Offline Sinitron
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« Reply #476 on: February 13, 2012 09:14 PM »
No, you don't get it; Snipe added versatility to an otherwise inflexible, low-damage unit which is the least mobile unit produced from the barracks. EMP is the anti-caster ability while snipe gives you an alternate way to spend their energy, which was efficient against the rapid tech switches Zerg can employ since Terran has an extremely hard time switching around their core composition. EMP wins out as the most useful, except in extremely rare late-game scenarios involving Brood Lords (which can be positioned so Ghosts have no effective way of reaching them) and Ultralisks (which most Zerg players don't make in the first place). It takes a long time to produce sufficient Ghosts to deal with a large amount of Brood Lords and Ultralisks, it's not something you can instantly switch over to. With EMP having already been nerfed to the point where many Terrans prefer Siege Tanks to deal with Infestors (further shoehorning people into doing Marine/Tank), the Snipe nerf will also make the Ghost's lack of utility and overall reliability a serious liability. I could accept that snipe does 25 damage to Massive and retained its 45 damage to everything else, but making it a purely anti-caster unit without buffing other areas would make every single Terran T3 unit a dubious choice in most situations, especially against Zerg.

A 'couple' cloaked Ghosts have no way of ever reaching said casters to use snipe in most situations, fungal will decloak them and if you have any army or detection nearby they will be picked off without being able to do any damage. You can even see their silhouettes when they're cloaked, as long as you're paying attention there's no effective way for them to 'assassinate' anything, which is why EMP is a better choice as you can fire it off while the army is moving out and disable the casters to force an engagement without their support, or force a retreat which can allow for the application of pressure, harass, or expanding behind it if you so desire. The only time Snipe would be preferable would be if they have their casters spread out thinly or they're only present in smaller numbers, and again that would only work if you have no supporting units nearby to defend them or detection overhead.

Furthermore, you're again mistaken regarding Viking count and how it works related to Zerg air. There is no way for Terran to keep up with Zerg larvae cycles, the Terran player would need an excessive amount of Starports available to keep up with just 1 hatchery worth of Corruptors, and to maintain a sufficient number to effectively take down Broods before they wreak havoc on a siege line. You're also wrong about costs, Corruptors only cost 25 more gas than Vikings do, and are the best airborne AA you can get. Like I said, one-on-one Corruptors beat Vikings until upgrades kick in, and even then will pull ahead if they use Corruption, and Vikings only pull ahead once the Terran player starts heavily microing his air units to stutterstep and focus-fire down the Corruptors. If you're sane, you will simply not morph all your Corruptors into Broods until you know you're safe to do so - anything else is psi-level play, and yes, Vikings will beat your Broods if you morph all your AA at the same time.

I'm not saying Vikings need a buff or Corruptors need a nerf, they're fine as-is, and I'm not saying snipe isn't too strong against Zerg T3 at the moment, but considering how Terran T3 is largely ineffective in most scenarios against Zerg and every high-end Terran unit is vulnerable to feedback, it's more a flavor-of-the-month type balance 'problem' similar to what happened to the Hellion but with much more dire consequences for the unit in question since it's a much more specialized ability and narrowing its usefulness down to a more limited scope detracts from the flexibility which makes Terran fun. If I wanted to play a shitty and boring race, I'd switch to Protoss and a-move some cliffwalking shit around.

Offline rtil
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« Reply #477 on: February 13, 2012 09:30 PM »
i dont know what version of terran you are playing but it is vastly different than the one that pro and high diamond/master/gm terrans play..  unless you're going pure mech i dont see how switching to reactored starport to pump out vikings is oh so terribly difficult to do.. if you're scouting like you should be and notice a greater spire tech switch and can't be assed to just snipe it with a dropship or two worth of stimmed mm, you've got to have at least 1 or 2 starports lying around and some reactors to swap it with. bam, you're pumping 4 vikings every xx seconds.. they do it all the time vs robo bay tech switches in tvp no reason you cant do it late game zvp. out of all the games i have seen i have never once seen a zerg able to overpower terran AA to defend brood lords with the shit dps of corruptors, you need something else, at least a handful of infestors or hydras (god forbid) to really get the job done quick enough.

a brood lord tech switch is slow and the units take their sweet ass time getting across the map, the amount of time it takes to field even a single bl should give you plenty of time to react properly and vikings are the proper answer.

as far as ghosts go, i can't tell you how many times i've seen a ghost tech switch absolutely ruin a zerg late game. multiple nuke drops, splitting up ghosts, cloak snipes, blanket emps.. they're a good unit with or without a 45 dmg snipe.

Offline Sinitron
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« Reply #478 on: February 14, 2012 07:29 AM »
I do go pure mech, but the thing is still that you need a lot of starports to keep up with 1 hatchery, and vikings don't counter corruptors that hard. Yes, they do more damage and have better range, but they're also flimsy and as far as sniping tech is concerned, reactors aren't particularily hard to kill either. In fact, a lot of good terrans prefer not to make reactors because it means they put more of their already demanding production capacity into a much more vulnerable position. It's better to have 4 starports than 2 starports with reactors, because you can add techlabs later for ravens and banshees if it's necessary. Plus, as I said, you're obsessed with defending the broods when you could just as well clear the skies first before morphing them in closer to the enemy base (and still covered by your own army). Also, there's no such thing as a "Ghost tech switch", either he has the barracks to produce them en masse or he does not, and furthermore Terran late-game against Zerg as a whole is very poor with the Ghost currently being the only effective T3 Terran can hope to make whereas Zerg tier 3, while situational, is largely effective at their intended role. All the situations you mentioned save for blanket EMPs can be prevented by taking precautions against Ghosts and paying attention. Guess what? Fungal makes the Ghost unable to snipe, EMP or nuke, in addition to negating cloak, and feedback spells instant death for any unit with an energy bar anyway. For an anti-caster unit, Ghosts sure are weak to other casters!!

But what do I know, most of the games I've seen end with some dumb marine/tank push at the 15 minute mark, with only a handful non-TvTs going beyond that point.

Offline Sinitron
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« Reply #479 on: February 14, 2012 07:58 AM »
More specifically; a Terran who intends to enter the late-game will get 4 starports. A Terran who is simply struggling to kill you off, will switch out a few reactored barracks with starports in a last ditch effort to not get killed by Brood Lords. These are two very different mentalities and outlooks; if you hold the latter, you most likely win.