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Official TBA StarCraft II Thread

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Offline rtil
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« Reply #480 on: February 14, 2012 11:55 AM »
again you just make it sound so easy, like the terran is going to put his army of vikings in a vulnerable place where i can just kill them all before i make brood lords. chances are there are 5 billion missile turrets littered all over his base and the vikings will hang out underneath a blob of marines until they are needed.

there is such a thing as a ghost tech switch. you need to build a ghost academy, sometimes more than one if you plan on using multiple nukes, you need more tech labs on barracks, you're putting gas into rax output. just because you have barracks already doesnt mean you're not doing a tech switch. that's like saying i'm never tech switching as a zerg as long as i have the larva to produce the units with.. i still need to build the building to create the unit.

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« Reply #481 on: February 14, 2012 04:35 PM »
StarCraft 2 thats cool, but personaly i think it is a really bad game  :cool:

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« Reply #482 on: February 14, 2012 05:08 PM »
lookit this faggot here
▬ஜ۩☆۩ஜ▬ ---★☆★☆★ DONALD TRUMP 2016 ★☆★☆★--- ▬ஜ۩☆۩ஜ▬

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« Reply #483 on: February 14, 2012 05:18 PM »
fuck you bitch  :cool:

Offline Sef
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« Reply #484 on: February 14, 2012 05:22 PM »
stupidity abound

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« Reply #485 on: February 14, 2012 05:28 PM »
go and fuck your self bitch  :cool:

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« Reply #486 on: February 14, 2012 06:58 PM »
how about i challenge you to a starcraft game you fucking bitch  :cool:

Offline Sinitron
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« Reply #487 on: February 16, 2012 10:21 AM »
again you just make it sound so easy, like the terran is going to put his army of vikings in a vulnerable place where i can just kill them all before i make brood lords. chances are there are 5 billion missile turrets littered all over his base and the vikings will hang out underneath a blob of marines until they are needed.

The only time a Terran will make '5 billion missile turrets' is if he's going mech and you're harassing with mutalisks. Come on man, you've got to be a little more realistic than that, games rarely last to the point where Terran has enough bases to just dump excess minerals into mass missile turrets. The point is you can use terrain to your advantage depending on map, and if he overcommits to AA his ground army will be comparatively weak, in addition to corruptors being very good, straight-forward AA. Their high natural armor even negates a lot of the damage marines do in the first place, and you don't have to morph in 20 broods all at once right over a ball of marines.'

there is such a thing as a ghost tech switch. you need to build a ghost academy, sometimes more than one if you plan on using multiple nukes, you need more tech labs on barracks, you're putting gas into rax output. just because you have barracks already doesnt mean you're not doing a tech switch. that's like saying i'm never tech switching as a zerg as long as i have the larva to produce the units with.. i still need to build the building to create the unit.

No, ghosts are bio, a Terran player needs to be going heavy bio in the first place to easily transition into ghosts because he needs a lot of barracks to produce them at a decent pace. Essentially, they're the end-game bio unit, just like factory armies get thors and starport armies eventually get battlecruisers (though ghosts are, at least in their current pre-nerf form, vastly more flexible than either of the other two), so it's not a tech switch if he is going bio already, it's just the natural option to start producing ghosts. Terran can do weird tech switches early on, for example marauder/hellion into marine/tank, but as soon as they start focusing on upgrades and infrastructure gets more defined, it's a lot harder to switch from one to the other. If you have 3/3 bio and 1/0 mech, you're effectively putting yourself behind as Terran by doing a switch to mech in the middle or late-game, just like how it makes more sense for zerg to stick to either melee damage upgrades or ranged damage upgrades (zergling/baneling/ultralisk or roach/hydra/infested marines). Zerg tech switches revolve around the fact that you *do* only need a single structure to produce what you want, whereas Terran needs pre-existing infrastructure to do so, which is the primary drawback of playing Terran macro, and once upgrades start kicking in you generally want to stay on the same path and use it to the maximum for the duration of the game. This is why a 1/1/1 opener can be strong, but the lack of focus make such a composition weaker if you stick to it throughout the game as the costs to upgrade everything skyrocket (leaving you with either fewer upgrades or less army). That's also why 'everything Terran works', because transitioning between tech is a lot more demanding since everything has seperate uprades and tech. Protoss, being closer to Terran than Zerg, have a much easier time because their ground upgrades affect both templar and robo, while shield upgrades carry over to air, and templar only needs gateways which are required for the basic units anyway, which is also why basic gateways units are shitty in a straight-up fight with basic barracks units.

Essentially, the core problem is that ghosts are the counter to Zerg tier 3, but the other Terran tier 3 is already countered by Zerg air; outright nerfing Ghosts to the extent that has been suggested will only encourage more 2-3 base play and all-ins, as opposed to macro games in which Terran is already at a disadvantage due to slow production and the most rigid upgrade system. The other casters have the means to counter ghosts already by themselves provided they have detection available, and making ghosts exclusively counter psionic is detrimental because it makes, ironically, the *Thor* the most flexible and useful tier 3 unit Terran has. Most people, Zerg players included, think this is stretching it, and a mere penalty to snipe damage against massive has been largely accepted as a more reasonable and fair solution by the majority of the online SC2 community.

Offline sev
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« Reply #488 on: February 16, 2012 10:25 AM »
both of you are scrubs because I HAVE VOID RAYS

Offline Sinitron
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« Reply #489 on: February 16, 2012 10:26 AM »
"3 cannons blockin off my door, 30 void rays dont need no more"

Offline rtil
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« Reply #490 on: February 16, 2012 01:57 PM »
well even when i was in high diamond, before late game came around a terran would almost always dump excess minerals into pre-emptive missile turrets whether he scouted a spire or not - call it base insurance, i guess they would rather be safe than sorry. terrans are typically swimming in minerals late-game because of MULEs, they dont have enough production output to possibly spend it all that quickly. yes he can overcommit to air i've seen it before but you just need like 8-10 viks same as if you were getting corruptors to kill colossus, doesn't take very long to make 10 viks..

and i get what you're saying - ghosts are bio, makes more sense to ease in to ghosts if you've been going bio in the first place. but ghosts are their own tech - they have their own building, their own upgrades, research, etc - and they're casters, unlike the rest of the bio army. if you're going into heavy ghost play you are doing a tech switch and your opponent will react accordingly and has to react accordingly. the ghost is a very different unit from standard mm, and is to be treated as such.

the ghost was never intended to be a zerg t3 counter and you can easily kill zerg t3 without ghosts, especially if the unit is caught out of the synergy of the zerg army. if you've allowed your zerg opponent to get to the point where he can make 10 ultras with his ling bling army, that's really your own fault for letting them macro the entire game unchecked, and you probably deserve to lose. snipe isnt gonna help you at that point.

Offline Sinitron
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« Reply #491 on: February 17, 2012 02:48 PM »
the ghost was never intended to be a zerg t3 counter and you can easily kill zerg t3 without ghosts, especially if the unit is caught out of the synergy of the zerg army. if you've allowed your zerg opponent to get to the point where he can make 10 ultras with his ling bling army, that's really your own fault for letting them macro the entire game unchecked, and you probably deserve to lose. snipe isnt gonna help you at that point.

that's sort of my point though, they're nerfing snipe because it 'counters' zerg tier 3 but only if the zerg player 'allows' the terran to mass ghosts, just like the terran player loses if he 'allows' the zerg to macro unchecked, and just nerfing massive damage would be just as fine

it's not a big issue and i don't give a shit since generally i win or lose vs a zerg long before he gets 10 ultras or has the bases and capacity to switch between air and ground armies as he sees fit, but it just sucks that they remove the versatility of snipe because it is too strong in an incredibly rare scenario (lategame TvZ where both players have a lot of bases) instead of doing something to balance out the process of getting to that stage in the first place

zvt is pretty balanced (though mech is an uphill battle for zerg imo) but any radical changes will be absent until the release of HotS

Offline Sinitron
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« Reply #492 on: February 17, 2012 02:51 PM »
Starcraft 2 is a horrible game why did you make this thread? :/

look it's cute that you have different 'tastes' (you're gay) but not every game has to be a shitty free-to-play DOTA-clone or whatever to be fun or interesting

Offline rtil
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« Reply #493 on: February 17, 2012 06:47 PM »
i dont see lategame zvt where the terran went bio as a "rare scenario" going pure mech (which seems to be your style) is not what most terrans do, and zvt games on average last longer than any other matchup, and also have the highest probability of going past the 20 minute mark

Offline Sinitron
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« Reply #494 on: February 17, 2012 08:41 PM »
all i see other terrans do is 2rax bunker rush or reactor hellions into a 2base marine/tank push or whatever and if they fail to kill anything with that they die in a fire (average terran that is, diamond and masters but not pro-level, which is more applicable to anyone below a pro-level)

mech is generally less popular because it is more macro-oriented and a lot more rigid than mass marine or whatever, it's very hard to successfully go mech off 1 or 2 bases as you simply don't have the gas income required to get a decent army with upgrades unless you do some weird gimmicky thing with banshees or push with a bunch of mass-repaired thors (which is fun but you're fucked if it doesn't utterly devastate the other guy) and i have had an extremely hard time finding replays of people actually doing mech (as opposed to marine/tank/medivac) until the last few months where it seems to have been gaining some momentum

my style is just evolving as i learn new strategies and approaches to mech overall, for example i make vikings to deal with mutas in TvZ sometimes because of the psychological effect, they're better at responding to light muta harass than thors or marines as they ignore terrain and the other guy tends to just back off once anything starts shooting at his mutas, in addition it has the added advantage of discouraging broods even though they're the only thing that could potentially wreck my day aside from burrowed roaches because of the entire "oh fuck he probably has 20 vikings and 40 missile turrets" mentality a lot of people have (even though it could be just a handful of unupgraded vikings)

i've also started to make more marines early on if only to fill a few bunkers and provide AA support until i get sufficient thors or vikings out, and i don't rely on proxy barracks floating around to give tanks vision but i have also started building missile turrets in the middle of my tankblob as i am sieging up on someones base for detection and extra AA (which wasn't unheard of in brood war)

all i'm saying is, a lot of terrans love to 1 or 2base cheese and macro/mech is seen as being stupid and impossible to pull off by a lot of people (every time i've asked about mech on forums or in channels they just reply LOL UR GAY MECH DOESN'T WORK EVER) even though i have seen a handful of pro games won with macro mech as opposed to standard bio or biomech which was pretty cool and never seen it actually crash and burn as horribly as people seem to think it would

the fact that i can choose to go super-aggressive with bio or set up a meatgrinder at my opponent's doorstep with mech is what makes terran fun and neither should be discouraged or be disadvantageous (just like how hydras shouldn't suck)

Offline rtil
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« Reply #495 on: February 18, 2012 12:53 AM »
hey im not sayin mech isnt viable im just sayin its not the fotm and it hasnt been for some time. but ive seen amazing plays with it, thors are not to be trifled with

some recent replays:
http://drop.sc/114171 <- zvz on korhal compound. 15 hatch vs 6 pool..see who wins >:)
http://drop.sc/114168 <- zvp metalopolis protoss rage
http://drop.sc/114169 <- zvp tal'darim. roaches vs blink
http://drop.sc/114167 <- zvp metalopolis. more fun with roaches
http://drop.sc/114170 <- me & sev 2v2, watch for the killer nuke :D

Offline Sinitron
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« Reply #496 on: February 18, 2012 09:32 AM »
yeah im saying mech isn't popular because mass marine is easier (and marine micro is regarded as pro) but it doesn't feel right for me and going pure mech is just the culmination of what i've been doing all along

also yeah protoss players are funny because they're always the one who seem to get the most worked up when they go robo and it doesn't work (MUTA OP I'LL NEVER MAKE THINGS THAT *COUNTER* THEM)

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« Reply #497 on: February 18, 2012 09:37 AM »
Fionnula: ahahaha you're bronze league. see what i mean?
Fionnula has reconnected.
You: yeah but check match history
i'm doing good atm
Fionnula: that's because you've watched youtube videos about how to mutaball
You: i don't watch video guides or streams actually
and i play random, i don't get zerg every game
Fionnula: of course
playing random is good, i respect that
You: in fact, my 3 most recent losses were as zerg, and twice to protoss
Fionnula: what i don't respect is zerg players going muta the vast majority of the time
i honestly believe that if mutas were removed from the game, there would be a mass exodus of zerg players
they're stop playing zerg
that one unit is so incredibly overpowered compared to every other unit that it fucks up the game
You: i'd end up going roach/corruptor instead into broods and infestors
Fionnula: address me point, though
mutas
too powerful, right?
You: no, mass muta is weak to strong timing attacks early on
Fionnula: not really
You: making lots of lings and spines for defense cuts into econ
Fionnula: you had enough lings and spines to hold off my attack
i tried
You: protoss can constantly produce probes while zerg has to balance workers and warriors
Fionnula: i came early, as you saw
but i didn't have enough to take you out
so i had to retreat
even though my economy was good
i shouldn't have to cut probes early to get a good army to defeat you int he first ten minutes
You: i swear though, it just comes down to personal improvement until you start hitting masters
Fionnula: i don't think so
there's no way past mutas for me
i mean
it's not like i win all my games against terrran and protoss
i have difficulties with those too in many respects
but mutas ... there's just nothing i can do. ever.
and that's a clear indication that they're too powerful
You: well, i have huge problems with terran vs protoss
Fionnula: they're fast, they can fly, they can attack ground and air, they're not too expensive, they're easy to get early
in a ball, they're deadly
no disadvantages
You: because i prefer hellions and tanks, which is less effective against protoss
Fionnula: just go mass bio with ghosts
easy
that's all terran ever does
against p
You: bio needs a much higher apm and i prefer positioning
especially against other terrans
because it's easier to focus on base management at the same time
which is a preference, i just don't like mmm
Fionnula: doesn't seem to stop you going muta
that doesn't make sense
surely if you prefer base management and positioning, you wouldn't go muta
so why do you?
You: the other option is to tech to broods, which i need a spire for anyway
Fionnula: because it's the most powerful unit in the game :)
You: and robo counters early roaches pretty effectively
Fionnula: i just want you to be honest
i wish zerg players would just admit it
You: it's either sling/bling/muta for mobility or roach/corruptor for durability as base compositions
i don't like leaving toss alone on 2 bases
if they get enough colo i can't engage from the ground
Fionnula: i should just change class
this shit is never going to change while i'm protoss
maybe if i go terran the mutaballs will stop
or if i go zerg and just embrace the mutas myself
ugh
You: i prefer terran mech personally
but i play random anyway
if i lose, i try to figure out why, and move on
it's not a big deal
Fionnula: what do you do when you get mutaballed?
by other zerg players
it doesn't piss you off?
You: as what race?
Fionnula: protoss
You: i go 3gate star if i don't see an early roach warren, and even then i can sort of handle it with voids
a combination of archons, phoenixes and high templar help in the late game
Fionnula: there is no late game with mutas
You: archons do extra vs bio anyway so they're acceptable against all zerg units
and phoenixes can chase them around
Fionnula: only if you have loads of phoenixes
You: for pure air a couple cannons and a phoenix squad is enough
Fionnula: so unless you see a roach warren
You: he can't commit to a fight vs phoenixes over cannons
Fionnula: you assume mutas
but you have to cannon your entire base in that case
if you have cannons on your mineral line
You: no, just to cover a few key positions
Fionnula: mutas can just go after your pylons/buildings
you can't build cannons everywhere
You: you placed your cannons behind your mineral line, so the nexus itself was wide open
but again when you start out going robo it leaves you vulnerable
Fionnula: but if i hadn't gone robo
you'd have gone roaches, no?
You: i've seen some early stargate builds which force hydralisks, followed up by robo and colossus
if you went mass stalker, no, i'd get mostly zerglings
Fionnula: i think the key reason zerg is the easiest race
is that it's easiest of all to respond to the other player
You: it still requires the tech structures
Fionnula: all you need to do is put down a building - roach warren, baneling nest whatever - and then with three bases all you need to do is burst out an entire army at once
whereas other races you have to build your army up unit by unit
You: if you open air you can possibly snipe some of it with voids
and yeah but that's also why zerg units are individually weaker
Fionnula: doesn't matter though does it
they die? you burst out more
protoss army dies? you're fucked
You: since terran has the least flexible production setup, they get the most flexible units, like marines
protoss can warp in units based on what they see, sort of like zerg
zealots for zerglings or stalkers for roaches, and sentries for masses
Fionnula: can't warp in eighteen units at a time from three bases
can't warp in phoenixes and voids
with three bases, you can burst out eighteen mutas at once
You: no, you use higher tech to supplement your gateway army
Fionnula: try making eighteen phoenixes at onec
meh, this is pointless
You: also you *can* warp in templar tech, both high and dark variants
Fionnula: yes, i'm aware of that
templar aren't exactly easy on the gas
You: i only get robo for detection generally unless im facing mass marine
Fionnula: very difficult to get HT (never mind researching storm) on two bases
while having a balanced army too
You: you could also do stuff like hallucination scout
i think that's what you did
Fionnula: i did
there was no spire
again

Offline Sinitron
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« Reply #498 on: February 18, 2012 09:37 AM »
You: so i threw down two spore erroneusly
Fionnula: all you have to do is put down a spire
once it's built
burst out eighteen mutas
You: then i changeling scouted and saw the robo
Fionnula: so i can scout
no spire
and a minute or two later
eighteen mutas
which is faintly ridiculous
You: you just always need to keep an eye on everything people do
or at least get a general sense of what can happen if you see x and y
you even guessed mutas
Fionnula: but i mean
that's my point
you don't seem to be getting what i'm saying
it is far easier for zerg to change what they're doing an have an instant army
if you decide, shit, i'd better go air
you have an air army very very fast
if i see your spire and think, shit, better go air
i have no chance of getting an army to match yours in time
You: well i wasn't doing banelings or roaches, just speedlings, so i was saving gas
which means either mutas or infestors on 2 bases
Fionnula: yeah
i think i predicted that half-way through the game, did i not?
You: yeah
Fionnula: and you didn't respond
You: and you got a twilight council presumably for blink
yeah i prefer to try to pay attention to stuff instead of typing all the time while playing
i didn't do mass muta because i have an all-consuming hatred for you and everything you do in an effort to ruin the game for you, i just thought "oh robo time to get a spire"
Fionnula: sure
You: when i saw the double gas i was worried about a dt rush more than anything
Fionnula: i just think you ought to be aware that mass mutas ruins the game
not that i expect you to care, naturally
You: idk i generally don't face it because if i see a weakness i end up killing off the other guy sooner
Fionnula: then
why are you still in bronze league?
You: i just haven't played enough to be promoted i guess
i told you, look at my match history
Fionnula: nah
anyway
at least i've learned something
You: that's the best anyone can hope to do
Fionnula: never - ever - build a robo against zerg until you see a roach warren
You: if you're frustrated with protoss, try the other races
Fionnula: i used to be terran all the time - hilariously easy compared to protoss - but changed for 2v2 matches with a friend
wanted more variety
so i decided to learn protoss
learned zerg at one point so i knew what i was up against
You: protoss kind of gets shoehorned into robo a lot of the time
unless you have really good micro and can make stargate/templar work
Fionnula: robo is essential for observer
You: terran has by far more variety depending on matchup
Fionnula: we can't just turn an overlord into an overseer
You: yeah but zerg also has limited options for cloaky units
Fionnula: i wouldn't call burrowing a limited option
You: roaches and infestors move slowly when burrowed and you can't get that tech as soon
but you can put down a dark shrine around the 5 minute mark
and can be warped in on top of the enemy
Fionnula: dark shrine is a dreadful idea at 5 minutes
it's so easily scouted
and all you need is to sacrifice a couple of drones for spores
You: maybe, but it's possible, and you can still turn the DT into archons and research charge or blink for your gateway units with the twilight council
Fionnula: while you storm my base with a bunch of 50-mineral-each lings?
You: i would do it if i see the other guy playing defensively, a sentry can defend for a long time by itself
Fionnula: why on earth are you even still talking to me?
You: idk
Fionnula: i was gonna 1v1 for a few hours but you've completely put me off
think i might go play 3ds or something
You: i'm just saying there's a reason for everything, and the game isn't that badly balanced
it's hard for me to give the best advice since i'm not really a pro player or anything
but maybe you could ask a masters toss for pointers on the replay or something like that
Fionnula: there's nothing to watch
it's not like i tried to fight your mutas and failed
You: you saw it coming and gave up
Fionnula: yes
the game was over the second i put down a robo
You: but maybe something about openers and how to react to zerg
i know im worried about dark templar and 4gates involving lots of zealots
unless i specifically roach rush but that sort of falls flat against most other things
Fionnula: you're only worried about that because you don't use roaches
some players - the one or two that don't go straight to mutas - go for early roach push
4 gate fails against that
and it's very difficult to scout what's coming from zerg
because protoss has only two scouting options
You: i can use roaches but it depends on match-up and what i feel like doing
Fionnula: observer (requires robo)
and hallucination (takes so long, it's too late to react once you realise what zerg is doing)
You: early on though you know it's limited to either roaches, zerglings, or a combination of the two
Fionnula: yes
and?
each of those combinations requires completely different builds
so it's a guessing game
You: protoss has a far greater variety of opening strategies, and zerg can't wall off like terrand and protoss can
Fionnula: zerg, on the other hand, flies an overlord over
why would you need to wall off?
the only reason anyone walls off is because of lings
You: it would prevent scouting
Fionnula: oh ffs
your lings prevent scouting
You: but then i can't be roach rushing
at least not a strong 7 roach rush
Fionnula: you can have six lings in your base to prevent scouting
and still make roaches
You: yeah, but then it would be delayed, giving you more time for either an observer or hallucination
Fionnula: and?
great, so i get my observer over
see a mass of lings
now realise mutas are coming
and have only three gateways and no stargates to deal with it
You: sometimes you need to force your opponent to do things they don't want to
like if i go stargate against toss i force hydras or air, which i deal with using colossi or high templar respectively
Fionnula: you keep avoiding my points
You: i can't tell you *exactly* what to do in any given situation, i'm saying every race has weaknesses and so do players
which you need to take advantage of and exploit
Fionnula: this is a waste of time
good luck getting promoted, bye
You: later

Offline Sinitron
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« Reply #499 on: February 18, 2012 09:39 AM »
basically summarized to "mutas op and i refuse to try something different and improving"