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Official TBA StarCraft II Thread

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Offline Gladius
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« Reply #500 on: February 18, 2012 03:40 PM »
basically summarized to "mutas op and i refuse to try something different and improving"



howdy folks
« Last Edit: February 18, 2012 03:45 PM by Gladius »
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Offline rtil
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« Reply #501 on: February 18, 2012 04:17 PM »
blink stalker, storm, archons.. mutas cant win every game by themselves

Offline sev
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« Reply #502 on: February 18, 2012 04:28 PM »
the problem isn't so much that protoss has nothing to counter mutas, it's that protoss has a hard time countering mutas without tech switching into something that will hurt them to try to switch out of. make some phoenixes vs the mutas and it takes forever. unless you're already on stargate tech, you'll never have enough phoenixes (in this current patch, not sure about post range-buff) to combat a good zerg harassing you constantly with mutas. and if you do make it past the harassment phase, the zerg can easily tech switch into mass roach or zergling and just run you down with the massive economic lead they will have gained. the only time phoenixes have ever worked for me vs muta is when i was already rolling with a phoenix build beforehand, or when the zerg just never attacked with his muta blob. also, every probe killed in muta harass is precious if the protoss is trying to counter with phoenix, because he'll be wanting to save his chrono boosts for getting his phoenix count up rather than chronoing out probes to make up for the difference in economy.

stalkers are the best counter to mutas in my opinion, but it requires impressive blink micro to be able to keep up with the harass long enough to do a 2 base blink timing, or (to an even more tenuous extent), a 3 base blink + templar/archon timing. i'm not saying mutalisks are overpowered, but i think protoss does have some rigidity issues with handling a unit as versatile as the mutalisk and the even more versatile zerg tech switches that can easily follow suit if the protoss chooses to commit to a specific tech. at least with marines, protoss have two hard counters let alone one (with plenty of peripheral advantages, like charge, +1 ground armor, forcefields, guardian shields). i actually do think protoss needs something like the tempest. it'd help to have a sort of colossus for mutalisks that can function well doing other things, particularly if protoss is going to be as stiff on tech-transitions in HotS as they are in WoL.

Offline Gladius
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« Reply #503 on: February 18, 2012 05:49 PM »
Agreeing that Protoss needs some more flexibility and a more versatile capital ship, but I would really really like to see the colossus removed or de-emphasized. There's nothing worse than constant (and REQUIRED) deathball play. Hope the new HotS units add depth and variety.

Just noticed I got reply #500 so here's some more silly phoenix fun!

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Offline Crabarms
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« Reply #504 on: February 19, 2012 01:27 PM »
I got to baneling bust a protoss. Most times I try to do it they are usually sentry heavy.

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« Reply #505 on: February 19, 2012 03:32 PM »
I haven't played in a while due to general busyness

gave in and played today for 2 hours or so

did alright

that is all

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« Reply #506 on: February 19, 2012 03:33 PM »
also, i'm doing a full switch to terran, at least until the end of WoL

i just think it's more fun and suits me better

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« Reply #507 on: February 19, 2012 03:42 PM »
zvt shakuras mech vs roach/bane (excuse my horrible micro AND macro): http://drop.sc/115719

Offline Sinitron
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« Reply #508 on: February 19, 2012 03:49 PM »
i still think your name is the ultimate GAY for a guy

passed 850 team terran and 700 team random

gonna watch your replay and whine at the terran for fucking up his mech probably

Offline Sinitron
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« Reply #509 on: February 19, 2012 04:27 PM »
yeah this guy was pretty weak

it was like he couldn't make up his mind about what he wanted to do early on which weakened him substantially as he never got around to do anything, and lost 2 hellions to slowlings which was very bad

he never did any real damage to your bases, but neither of you scouted very much or did any real damage until you killed his planetary with broods (which he could have saved with massrepair and vikings, but didn't)

some mutalisks would have fucked him over at 10-12ish minutes because he only had 1 turret at his main for the longest time and got an armory but didn't start on either upgrades or thors for a while

if he had started on +1 weapons early and done a hellion/tank push with marines and possibly turrets for AA to contain and shell your natural, especially with a floating proxy barracks for vision, you would have been in trouble

some SCVs mixed in with his thors to repair them would have done him good, and he should also have been more proactive with microing his hellions instead of just losing them to the banelings and roaches

he crapped himself and spammed starports as soon as he saw the broods (because neither of you did enough to check up on the other)

you could have killed him off a lot sooner if you burrowed under his army and unburrowed your roaches while he was unsieged and then pushed his third (the planetary) or busted down the door to his natural (taking out his armory to delay upgrades and thors)

again he was way ahead of you in supply at some point but sort of didn't do much worth mentioning

i really think you should have had eyes on him more because if he had made some banshees he would have done to you what your broods did to his 4th and you couldn't really have done shit about it

i suspect he's just watched a few games of people doing mech and isn't very comfortable with it by himself

imo a few early hellions poking around your base killing a few drones + a bunker expand behind it would have been a much stronger alternative to boost him economically and then gone hellion/thor vs ling/muta and hellion/tank vs roach/bling (again depending on scouting which NEITHER OF YOU DID ENOUGH OF ok)

Offline Sinitron
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« Reply #510 on: February 19, 2012 04:33 PM »
hellion/thor and hellion/tank are very different for the first you want blueflame + armor ups (negating the rapid but low damage attacks of lings + muta splash) and for the second you just want weapon ups (since hellions don't do bonus damage vs armored anyway) so it's kind of important to pick either/or when on 2bases because you won't really have enough gas to support more than 2 thors in production at a time and

you also want a second armory when on 3 bases to stay ahead in upgrades

doing a mix of either isn't really efficient *until you have enough bases to support it*

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« Reply #511 on: February 19, 2012 05:32 PM »
i dont know why you say i didn't do enough scouting, i had far more vision than him and had overlords at every expansion, plus an overseer pumping out changelings often (although he kept killing them) with almost full vision of his entire army for almost the entire game. i didn't need to scout his base anymore at that point - i could see everything he was building and where it was going.

i basically knew what he was doing the entire game. otherwise i wouldn't have been able to react to his pushes the way i did.

what my weak points are macro and micro. didnt do much of any focus firing, too many banelings died without reaching a target because i let the roaches get in the way, and he was ahead of me on worker count up until i killed his planetary.

i also dont go mutas in zvt. they're too much of a gamble and not durable enough deal with either bio or mech. marines > mutas, upgraded thors > mutas. and while they synergize nicely with lings, bfh will just kill them before they do any real damage to help out with the thors and tanks blasting away behind them. afaic, roach/bling is far more reliable than going muta/ling as your main army composition vs mech.

but yeah he wasn't all that great and he didn't make any effort to save his planetary. that being said, it's far easier to criticize a player just watching him than it is to actually do what you tell people to do in a game. he probably couldn't decide to split his forces and didn't have enough vikings to deal with the broodlords at the time.

he also freely let me expand and drone without any kind of harass at all, one of the weaknesses of pure mech play imo. no drop play with stimmed mm.. one of the deadliest things for a zerg to deal with, just doesnt happen in these kinds of games. if i had been just a little faster with my macro in this game i would have destroyed him far quicker.

but on the other hand he never harassed with his hellions, he was far too timid with them.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2012 05:41 PM by rtil »

Offline Sinitron
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« Reply #512 on: February 19, 2012 06:42 PM »
you never saw the armory on his doorstep for starters, while he kept scanning you (though this was because he wasn't muling as well as he should have or using his hellions)

he also piled up a lot of money, even though you saw his army he still had units laying around his base (which he forgot about the whole game) and he had the necessary resources to make other stuff, he definitely could have saved his planetary but he simply didn't do anything at all, not even move his SCVs away

i'm also not talking about committing to mutas, but as you eventually went with a spire and had a decent amount of resources most of the time, throwing out 5-6 mutas to confine him to his base, snipe add-ons and stray units or anything else could be extremely aggravating for him to deal with as thors are slow and spreading them out to prevent muta harass or switching to the dreaded mass missile turret build could benefit you

again if you had more vision of his actual base layout you could have done a timed strike after or even during an engagement to kill his armory as it was in a very vulnerable position and destroying it would be pretty serious for his factory-based army - it's like destroying a greater spire because it denies higher tech units and upgrades at the same time

you could also have busted down the rocks and done damage to his planetary expansion, not necessarily killing it outright but sniping a refinery with roaches to deny gas income or something and force him to split his army up or leave his front vulnerable (people love to a-move the entirely of their force to respond to like 2 hellions in a corner) and force him to defend two sides and once again allowing you to hit the all-important armory

also, his inability to do damage was definitely his undoing as all he did was trade armies in the middle a couple times without making an effective push into your territory to actually hurt you and put the pressure on, at several points he had too many thors, too few tanks and lost too many hellions to achieve anything of value (especially since you weren't going with air to kill him off until later)

again, his opening was incredibly clumsy, possibly due to drone harass or some other reason and he could have caused considerable damage early on if he just had a more focused battleplan

the weakness of mech is poor decisions and the slow nature of tanks and thors, it's still absolutely possible to harass on the ground with hellions or do hellion drops, you had several openings at multiple stages of the game that he failed to exploit because he wasn't creative enough with his force and didn't have enough guts to push you from a less exposed angle - imagine if he sieged a couple tanks to defend his base and got a medivac to shift troops into your main from the access at the planetary expansion, slowly sieging into it? that would have been utterly horrifying to deal with, as an example of something he *could* have done, but didn't do

it's a lot easier for me to comment on his play than yours because i *do* play mech terran, and his play was overall plagued with indecisiveness, an inability to effectively engage your army and he seemed to lack the confidence required to play terran as you need to be incredibly proactive - yeah, i'm not creative enough with starports, but overall my aggression and pushes are far more deadly than what this guy exhibited - i commend him for trying, but he needed to commit to one or the other alternatives instead of squandering troops in the middle

keep in mind, mech is incredibly gas intensive - bringing SCVs to repair and using orbital energy to scan is justified later on and at some point he lost a number of thors which could easily have lived with just a handful of SCVs around to keep them alive - if they had lived, he could have had a better chance at pushing and killing your third instead of retreating

i'm not saying you did too bad, i just wish you'd be more aggressive and at least do flybys over his base (even with speed overlords as they're fairly survivable) to look for weaknesses or something and you might have been able to get your bases going a little sooner (your third and fourth at least) and *in this particular scenario* i think my tvz mechplay could have killed you, especially if i didn't have to worry about mutalisks

if you had been a little more proactive (which you could have afforded as you knew where his army was) you could have forced him out of his comfort zone and opened up new fronts while still being able to move back and defend yourself easily - but that could also possibly force you out of your own comfort zone, i guess

again, i can't comment on your zerg play very well as i don't main zerg, but you need to exploit every weakness and opening as best you can - every little bit helps and can drive your opponent to fuck up whatever he is trying to do and inflict crippling damage, and mech is especially vulnerable to this as the heavy hitters of the army are very slow to react, which is why i hate maps like metalopolis as additional bases feel incredibly vulnerable, forcing me to rely on pressure to keep the enemy in check

another option you could have considered since your banelings were somewhat ineffective could be to retain more speedlings and use them to come up on his tanks from behind as the map + positioning of his forces definitely allowed for it, especially after you killed his hellions

Offline BluPhoenix
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« Reply #513 on: February 19, 2012 06:48 PM »
see this is why i stopped playing
[12:59 AM] elm: yea honestly if you dont want to cum on elmer fudds bald head whats wrong with you
4:08 PM - ExBerian: can you draw me a nina williams being (fucked)
[07:49.46] <+slack> cum erupts from the dick at an alarming rate
[07:49.59] <+slack> it will blast off and slap the wall at like 40 mph

[1:17 AM] Darreus: iF ONLY I could Geind my ass on ym balls that'd be pretty cool but im too busy contemplating being a girl at 1 in the morning

Offline Gladius
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« Reply #514 on: February 19, 2012 06:54 PM »
see this is why i stopped playing

back you go 2 the imbalanced and dumbed down trash that is dawn of war d00d!!!
▬ஜ۩☆۩ஜ▬ ---★☆★☆★ DONALD TRUMP 2016 ★☆★☆★--- ▬ஜ۩☆۩ஜ▬

Offline BluPhoenix
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« Reply #515 on: February 19, 2012 06:57 PM »
see this is why i stopped playing

back you go 2 the imbalanced and dumbed down trash that is dawn of war d00d!!!

WRONG i only play galactic battlegrounds
[12:59 AM] elm: yea honestly if you dont want to cum on elmer fudds bald head whats wrong with you
4:08 PM - ExBerian: can you draw me a nina williams being (fucked)
[07:49.46] <+slack> cum erupts from the dick at an alarming rate
[07:49.59] <+slack> it will blast off and slap the wall at like 40 mph

[1:17 AM] Darreus: iF ONLY I could Geind my ass on ym balls that'd be pretty cool but im too busy contemplating being a girl at 1 in the morning

Offline Sinitron
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« Reply #516 on: February 19, 2012 06:59 PM »
blu you never truly... PLAYED...

nigga...

Offline sev
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« Reply #517 on: February 19, 2012 06:59 PM »
my scouting is terrible as terran but i got some coaching from someone on quantic tonight so i'm feeling a lot better about my plays, i've been kind of winging terran up to this point

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« Reply #518 on: February 19, 2012 07:01 PM »
um whatchu talkin bout sin i was actually in a tourney(that i got kicked out of first round but still went 4-2!!)
[12:59 AM] elm: yea honestly if you dont want to cum on elmer fudds bald head whats wrong with you
4:08 PM - ExBerian: can you draw me a nina williams being (fucked)
[07:49.46] <+slack> cum erupts from the dick at an alarming rate
[07:49.59] <+slack> it will blast off and slap the wall at like 40 mph

[1:17 AM] Darreus: iF ONLY I could Geind my ass on ym balls that'd be pretty cool but im too busy contemplating being a girl at 1 in the morning

Offline Sinitron
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« Reply #519 on: February 19, 2012 07:02 PM »
i'm not talking about tourneys WTF