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Official TBA StarCraft II Thread

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Offline Crabarms
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« Reply #920 on: December 20, 2012 06:38 AM »
nerf hydras zerg op

Offline psi43
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« Reply #921 on: December 20, 2012 07:59 AM »
nerf hydras zerg op


If Blizzard does that, I will be VERY angry.

I am currently working on an opening which (in my opinion!!) is quite viable in ZvP. That is, if your opponent is doing FE or FFE. If they aren't, it may fail quite badly due to 15-hatch being part of it.

General idea of the opening:
  • Getting out 9 Roaches and 9 Hydras around the 10 minute mark. (Perhaps even more than 9, depending on how well I can optimize it).
  • They will have +2 missile damage and +2 ground carapace armor.
  • Hydralisks will have Grooved Spikes and Increased Muscular Augments.
  • Roaches will have Glial Reconstitution.
  • When you move out at roughly 10 minutes, you will have 3 bases (main + 2 expands). Each of the bases will have exactly 16 Drones on minerals and 2 extractors with each 3 Drones in them.
  • Once you move out, you are likely to be able to expand to a fourth base.

Things that MAY be able within the same time-frame:
  • Burrow, Pneumatized Carapace and Ventral Sacks (in case of Protoss Wall-Off)
  • Tunneling Claws for Roaches (may be helpful, I assume. Especially for Force Fields)

Now obviously, there's also bad sides about this opening:
  • If harassment is strong, you may have to delay the attack in favor of spine/spores. Alternatively, I will try to find out if I can switch the build-order up a little to get a couple of roaches/hydras out early.
  • If your opponent is NOT fast expending or forge expending, he WILL fling poop in your face when you try to get your second or third base up definitely
  • As I've learned from rtil and now also from my own experience - there's basically a window in which the attack has to bear fruits (not necessarily end the game but be damaging at least (read: next point)
  • If your opponent rushes for Colossi, you MAY be screwed. We'll see whether or not I can work Burrow + Tunneling Claws in there. If you scout a Colossi rush, go more Roach-heavy. A simple burrow, move, unburrow, focus is usually doing a quite nice trick!

And of course, there's also good sides to this opening:
  • If your Protoss opponent is choosing to go for the currently so popular Air-Toss build, well. Then you destroy his FFE. As far as I've heard from other Protoss, they'll try to conserve gas until they can start the star-gate-pump-out-unit-action. Also, if you manage to destroy your opponent's FFE/FE then he is quite fucked. To survive, he has to transition into something that isn't Air-Toss for a while.
  • If your Protoss opponent should decide to go for an Immortal-Sentry-All-In, I BELIEVE you could be safe if played right. As far as I'm aware, there is no harassment aside from the scouting Probe involved in this build. This is something I have to test though, seeing as I'm still not 100% sure if there will be 9roach/9hydra or eventually even more at the 10:30 minute mark. Last time I played, I had 14roach/12hydra at 10:30.
  • If you manage to successfully pull off the opening and destroy your opponent's FE/FFE, you are still left with 4 bases (if optimization of the opening goes right for me) and of course a quite capable 2/2 ground army, with most (if not all) of their other upgrades. I'd say that's a good position to be in around 13-14 minutes into the game, once the initial attack has passed.

Keep in mind that everything I'm currently posting here is 80% theory-crafting and speaking from own experience in SIMILAR situations, instead of trying all this.
I need about 20 more goes to get the core-idea of this opening down, then I will start to tweak it accordingly to still work under harassment and other situations.

I'll probably post an update of this either in roughly 7-9 hours or whenever I get my new videocard.


EDIT:
http://www.thebackalleys.com/dump/download.php?f=11296 <- This is a replay of me trying a variation of this build for the 4th time.
11.30 on the DOT (<I think lmao) I have 9 Hydras and 9 Roaches, both with speed, hydra with range, 2/2, 3 fully saturated bases.
On my way to the other guy, I'm finishing up burrow, the 2 overlord upgrades and tunneling claws (which - if you look at when I started them - I could have started before and they'd all be done by then).

I'm not sure if I should try to go for 11.30 with the overlord upgrades, burrow and tunneling claw added to what I already had (also could've gotten 15 roach 15 hydra probably I think) OR if I should try to go with what I previously went for only but a faster time.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2012 04:49 PM by ΨNicole »

Offline psi43
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« Reply #922 on: December 21, 2012 05:23 PM »
double post because..

well, video.


Offline Gladius
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« Reply #923 on: December 25, 2012 01:43 AM »
▬ஜ۩☆۩ஜ▬ ---★☆★☆★ DONALD TRUMP 2016 ★☆★☆★--- ▬ஜ۩☆۩ஜ▬

Offline Sinitron
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« Reply #924 on: December 25, 2012 07:14 PM »
playing brood war on lan

Offline rtil
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« Reply #925 on: December 25, 2012 08:09 PM »
playing sc2 in america with low ping

Offline zwimmy
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« Reply #926 on: December 26, 2012 06:02 AM »
I started playing again add me: seannyj

Offline rtil
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« Reply #927 on: December 26, 2012 02:47 PM »
can't add you without the friend code # bub

Offline zwimmy
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« Reply #928 on: December 26, 2012 02:57 PM »
seannyj #155

I know I wrote it here months ago but it never got added to the first post.

Offline Sinitron
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« Reply #929 on: December 28, 2012 08:03 PM »
playing sc2 in america with low ping

i don't need low ping to mech just fucking retards to run into the meatgrinder once it's set up

also brood war is pretty cool

i mean sure if you don't control every single unit as they move across the map they're bound to get stuck in some corner and spazz out but hey a little apm excercise never gave anyone a heart attack

Offline rtil
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« Reply #930 on: December 29, 2012 01:31 AM »
old rts mechanics really did not age well. they piss me off. fond memories but im not a big enough nostalgiafag  to go back and play them. they were fun when i was a kid but they have been outshined now.

Offline Sinitron
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« Reply #931 on: December 29, 2012 02:41 PM »
in terms of mechanics, sure, sc2 is better, but it doesn't have the same dynamics as brood war, and a little struggling with the interface is just good practise

it's important to be able to understand what makes a game good, and what makes it bad - in sc1's case it's the clunky interface, even for its time compared to games like total annihilation

starcraft 2's weak points were several different things, like the horrible storyline and acting (not all bad, but that frankly made it worse since they showed they could do better) and an increased focus on 'game-breaking' units and mechanics, especially in the sentry/colossus/mothership and infestor... even the old hellion to a lesser degree

by comparison, the brood war equivalents were a lot less extreme, the reaver was powerful but had more pronounced drawbacks in its lack of mobility and high ammunition costs, while the arbiter filled a nice middleground between support and harass for protoss

it's a little odd that they claim to not want to simply remake brood war, but still reuse the same mechanics in heart of the swarm while retaining several of the main problems wings of liberty suffered from, like the swarm host essentially being a lurker while overlapping with the brood lord

i *always hated lurkers*, but at least their delayed line damage mechanic stood out and allowed for some interesting counter-micro, which is one of the things veterans think SC2 is missing - and keep in mind, they didn't want to bring back lurkers because then they would overlap with banelings... do you see why this is odd when both the sh and bl spawn additional 'free' units to do damage and draw fire?

vanilla starcraft had some design issues too, like how useless terran barracks units were, the worst of which were patched up when brood war was released.... some 6 months later, as opposed to almost 3 years for starcraft 2

the bottom line isn't that brood war is a better game... it has aged, and not too well all things considered, however compared to the modern starcraft 2 the main issues with brood war are technical or interface-related, as opposed to problematic dynamics between units and treating the players like idiots (automated gameplay in hots), and a lingering feeling that blizzard are kind of chasing their own tail instead of actually breaking any ground

and face it

brood war could still be around long after battle.net bites the dust, which is the only reason why i'm actually playing it now

Offline rtil
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« Reply #932 on: December 29, 2012 08:05 PM »
sc1 and bw mechanically speaking are bad games. thats what makes them interesting to watch - pro players could take a unit with terrible pathing and make it look invincible. if the game was remade today it wouldnt have the ridiculous mechanics and limitations that it did then. that was the best they could do at the time, muchlike other rts it involved more micromanagement. but that doesnt necessarily make them better games. in some aspects they involve more skill, but only because of a clunky and old engine that can barely do anything on its own, much less do what it's told.

there is more volatility in modern games, but the players with real skill still stand above everyone else. sc2 isn't perfect but in my opninion it is the best rts engine i've ever played after 15 years of playing rts games. my biggest complaint only lies in unit design. spells like fungal growth and forcefield and units like the colossus piss me off and i think they could do a better job.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2012 08:07 PM by rtil »

Offline Sinitron
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« Reply #933 on: December 29, 2012 08:07 PM »
that's what i'm saying though, there was less emphasis on units like that in sc1, there were only a handful like lockdown and stasis

Offline rtil
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« Reply #934 on: December 29, 2012 08:09 PM »
despite that sc2 winrates have been fairly even in wol lately. but only because of  a few defining factors.

Offline Sinitron
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« Reply #935 on: December 29, 2012 08:14 PM »
that still doesn't make protoss any less queer though

Offline rtil
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« Reply #936 on: December 30, 2012 01:45 AM »
i find protoss the most boring race to play

Offline Sinitron
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« Reply #937 on: December 30, 2012 12:11 PM »
well yeah

their most badass units (dragoons and carriers) were either removed or gimped in sc2

their old siege unit (reaver) was replaced by a cliff-scaling siege tank which requires far more effort to counter than it does to use

protoss was always kind of "that stupid race for people who want to use a little less effort" but it wasn't half as bad in sc1 since you still needed to babysit units or they would just about kill themselves

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« Reply #938 on: December 30, 2012 12:24 PM »
also what made mech so good in vanilla/bw was the higher base damage of tanks (made even more impressive since ultras were the only 'super'-units on the ground) combined with more cramped quarter map design allowing you to take positions and hold them with just a handful of tanks as opposed to needing them all together to not get overwhelmed by a small sling/bling blob

maps like the old kulas ravine was more like BW than more recent additions (though admittedly not fair to zerg, it was still a nice map)

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« Reply #939 on: December 30, 2012 03:31 PM »
there are still plenty of chokes in sc2 maps, and seige tanks have smart fire now so they do the maximum amount of damage . if they did more damage now with the way hots is shaping up lings would be made obsolete in zvt