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Should we reduce the current human population by 100%

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Offline Gladius
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« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2016 02:49 PM »
its good that mother nature can clean up her own mess (like the copious behavioral sinks and dead-end cultures of the west) before nuclear warfare takes the planet down with it
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Offline Bamyasi
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« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2016 07:27 PM »
i have heard of abstaining from procreation partly for reasons due to bad genetics, and also heard of people getting abortions after finding out their child will/most likely suffer from some kind of terrible disease or syndrome through ultrasound or however they do this now instead of bringing the child to term and willingly allow it to suffer which i find

it's one thing not knowing, but knowing your child will inescapably suffer, never have the same opportunities you did, and possibly live that way for many years is worse than negligence.
Agreed. One of my friends in middle school had two siblings on either side with cystic fibrosis, which imo is just as bad, even if they couldn't screen for it when the second was born. She was a lovely girl, but the fact that her parents were such utter fuckwads made me fucking sick. People like that need to be sterilized.

it's a unique time that we live in that this is happening, but you and i passed that generational gap in some sense if we were to hypothetically have children. even though we aren't necessarily savvy to the lingo and zeitgeist of your average 12 year old, we do use the same technology and we're better at it, too. because we grew up with it rapidly changing before our eyes we had the benefit of being forced to quickly re-learn what we knew while at the same time being in a situation where we were forced to fix things on our own because our parents grew up with typewriters instead of computers.

i've noticed most people around 10+ years younger than myself, while glued to their phones and any piece of technology they can get their hands on that allows them to socialize and waste time, have the basic instinct of taking something to the Geek Squad the second it "breaks". basically they've grown up in an era of technology where the internals seemed off limits and never bothered. they're good at adopting but not at adapting. but this is way off topic.
I never thought of it this way actually, that people closer to our age, not "digital natives" or whatever, might be better at troubleshooting. It seems like a side effect of Apple making everything so "streamlined" and "user friendly" that most of the population thinks their iPhone runs on mana. Kind of sad when you think about it, but you're right.

sometimes i wonder what things would be like if there was some kind of required training for parenthood before or after the pregnancy. but that implies that you could fail the test, the qualifications of the test are somewhat arbitrary, and the introduction of the test is a form of eugenics.

deciding what goes on the test/how you qualify would be really difficult to pin down. if i was to put one together i'd try to do it from a purely utilitarian viewpoint - asking the potential parents questions about their daily life, workload, income, then showing how much the child will cost you and what you'll have to change in order to afford the child or if they even can. basically trying to do everything to convince the couple to not have a child if it appears that doing so would diminish the quality of life of both the parents and the child.

but if they wanted to still have one anyway i wouldn't try to stop them. just thinking about eugenics makes me feel like a redditor
Yeah I think at least some preliminary instruction for parents would be reasonable. You have to take lessons before getting your driver's license and raising a kid is just as dangerous (in that you can only fuck up once really bad before someone gets hurt or dies).

I do think there's a science to good parenting however, and I really, really dislike the "celebrating diversity" when it comes to styles of child rearing. "I spank my kids" vs. "I don't spank my kids" really just comes down to one of them being an abusive megalomaniac, no ifs ands or buts (pun intended). There definitely needs to be more incentives not to have children though, but sugar daddy Washington isn't helping at all. I guess as long as we keep pumping out taxpayers, they're happy to support them.

I have somewhat mixed feelings about eugenics but yeah it would be difficult to regulate. If people want to have children they'd still do it illegally, just like abortions. Maybe if we payed people to sneak down the chimney and swap out the stupid ugly fetus with a bright and beautiful one, but even then I think parents having children they are vastly dumber than is borderline child abuse. Not to mention this would be just as much a feminist issue as abortion.

Fuck.

Offline michaell
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« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2016 07:08 AM »
i knew some very decent people with disabilities and i wonder if they also thought they shouldnt have been born

Offline michaell
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« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2016 07:17 AM »
I simply don't think it's right to impose any existence onto another person
i agree with this sentiment, not because i regret being born or anything but because of how unsure i am about our ultimate fate i wouldn't want to also impose that question on someone i was partly responsible for bringing into this world
Quote
The decision not to procreate is, for me, in part a eugenic one, and I expect others to adopt this position (or, at the very least, adopt children), or be given more incentives to do so if they just really don't give a fuck about the people their making
adopt the position on the basis of eugenics? somehow i doubt it, but there are definitely less people in developed nations having children for a multitude of reasons. most of them are selfish, but i don't think there's anything wrong with being selfish. and the world is already overpopulated in terms of sustainability imo

this overpopulation talk is really fucking stupid

it depends WHERE

in europe we have negative demographic growth rate and the number of detrimental, mostly economic, consequences it brings about strains credulity

im sure it has to do with abortion like in ukraine

2 million abortions every year or something

and for now they have like

1,5 million people born every year
2 million dying every day

AND THATS 4 MILLION PEOPLE DYING

why are ukrainians so braindead???????



Offline Bamyasi
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« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2016 08:02 AM »
i knew some very decent people with disabilities and i wonder if they also thought they shouldnt have been born
Same here. I think there's a difference between accepting your circumstances and inflicting them on another person though. I see knowingly giving birth to a severely disabled child as a form of violence. Sure, disability rights activists will argue blindness, deafness, etc. are only "afflictions" so far as society cannot accommodate them, i.e. they're socially constructed, which I agree with, but it's also just reality. There are communities of deaf people out there who are so prideful of their condition that they'd take measures to have a child like themselves, which is disgusting and pure narcissism.

WHERE
Mainly First World and developing countries, if we're talking about resource and energy consumption.

Offline Gladius
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« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2016 10:49 AM »
disgusting and pure narcissism.

https://www.reddit.com/r/childfree

u don't know the meaning of the words til u look here
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Offline Bamyasi
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« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2016 10:53 AM »
Well at least they're not breeding. Intentions shouldn't matter, their narcissism will die with them, cold and alone.

Offline Gladius
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« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2016 10:54 AM »
Well at least they're not breeding.

truth (who the fuck would want these neotenous dorks as parents)
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Offline rtil
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« Reply #28 on: January 27, 2016 03:47 PM »
I simply don't think it's right to impose any existence onto another person
i agree with this sentiment, not because i regret being born or anything but because of how unsure i am about our ultimate fate i wouldn't want to also impose that question on someone i was partly responsible for bringing into this world
Quote
The decision not to procreate is, for me, in part a eugenic one, and I expect others to adopt this position (or, at the very least, adopt children), or be given more incentives to do so if they just really don't give a fuck about the people their making
adopt the position on the basis of eugenics? somehow i doubt it, but there are definitely less people in developed nations having children for a multitude of reasons. most of them are selfish, but i don't think there's anything wrong with being selfish. and the world is already overpopulated in terms of sustainability imo

this overpopulation talk is really fucking stupid

it depends WHERE

in europe we have negative demographic growth rate and the number of detrimental, mostly economic, consequences it brings about strains credulity

im sure it has to do with abortion like in ukraine

2 million abortions every year or something

and for now they have like

1,5 million people born every year
2 million dying every day

AND THATS 4 MILLION PEOPLE DYING

why are ukrainians so braindead???????



of course it depends where. obviously from your eurocentric shithole point of view yes there are countries with negative birthrates, but i'm talking about the global demographic trend. most models put us at around 9bn by 2050, while we already have massive logistical problems when it comes to feeding and caring for the 7 or so bn we have now.

Offline Gladius
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« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2016 03:58 PM »
The few White Americans capable of taking real action against the current situation are those who have undergone tours of duty in Iraq, Afghanistan and the Gulf, special forces men, marine corps, some of the army. They are too small in number and too many find jobs as security, cops, mercenaries and other fields that let them carry and shoot guns. They'll take out their aggression on pot smokers, the poor, vibrants and in the case of the men who really want to kill people... their lust for blood is channeled onto strangers half the globe away.

Hitler dismantled the Jewish hegemony in Germany because WWI gave him a ready pool of battle-hardened men who enjoyed taking orders and smashing skulls but weren't given a meaningful role to play in post-war Germany. America's young whites aren't of the same of background or in the same tough spot.

ZOG will be destroyed when most of the demographic is non-White and thus unproductive and no longer a good host for the Jewish parasite. There will be no sudden explosion right there and then, the USA will just appear the same as any other mostly ethnically murky nation in the Americas -- poor quality economy, law enforcement, services, leadership, everything. The young whites who should have brought down the hammer putting the marxists, feminists, coloreds, and LGBTs into their well deserved graves will blow their lives in confusion and nostalgically complaining that "Life sucks, everything is crap nowadays and just gets worse." and they won't even have the courage or common sense to point out the Jew.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2016 04:00 PM by Gladius »
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Offline michaell
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« Reply #30 on: January 27, 2016 04:05 PM »
I simply don't think it's right to impose any existence onto another person
i agree with this sentiment, not because i regret being born or anything but because of how unsure i am about our ultimate fate i wouldn't want to also impose that question on someone i was partly responsible for bringing into this world
Quote
The decision not to procreate is, for me, in part a eugenic one, and I expect others to adopt this position (or, at the very least, adopt children), or be given more incentives to do so if they just really don't give a fuck about the people their making
adopt the position on the basis of eugenics? somehow i doubt it, but there are definitely less people in developed nations having children for a multitude of reasons. most of them are selfish, but i don't think there's anything wrong with being selfish. and the world is already overpopulated in terms of sustainability imo

this overpopulation talk is really fucking stupid

it depends WHERE

in europe we have negative demographic growth rate and the number of detrimental, mostly economic, consequences it brings about strains credulity

im sure it has to do with abortion like in ukraine

2 million abortions every year or something

and for now they have like

1,5 million people born every year
2 million dying every day

AND THATS 4 MILLION PEOPLE DYING

why are ukrainians so braindead???????



of course it depends where. obviously from your eurocentric shithole point of view yes there are countries with negative birthrates, but i'm talking about the global demographic trend. most models put us at around 9bn by 2050, while we already have massive logistical problems when it comes to feeding and caring for the 7 or so bn we have now.

so what

its their problem not ours, europe is the most important alright

plus theres lotsa food and other resources in the world its all about redistribution that there is something amiss about

when your averange congolese boy goes to the black market he prefers to buy an ak47 to a box of eggs lets face the truth

Offline michaell
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« Reply #31 on: January 27, 2016 04:06 PM »
like

come on

why would i. why would you. why would anyone care about those people. fuck those people! im all about local problems!

Offline rtil
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« Reply #32 on: January 27, 2016 04:24 PM »
I simply don't think it's right to impose any existence onto another person
i agree with this sentiment, not because i regret being born or anything but because of how unsure i am about our ultimate fate i wouldn't want to also impose that question on someone i was partly responsible for bringing into this world
Quote
The decision not to procreate is, for me, in part a eugenic one, and I expect others to adopt this position (or, at the very least, adopt children), or be given more incentives to do so if they just really don't give a fuck about the people their making
adopt the position on the basis of eugenics? somehow i doubt it, but there are definitely less people in developed nations having children for a multitude of reasons. most of them are selfish, but i don't think there's anything wrong with being selfish. and the world is already overpopulated in terms of sustainability imo

this overpopulation talk is really fucking stupid

it depends WHERE

in europe we have negative demographic growth rate and the number of detrimental, mostly economic, consequences it brings about strains credulity

im sure it has to do with abortion like in ukraine

2 million abortions every year or something

and for now they have like

1,5 million people born every year
2 million dying every day

AND THATS 4 MILLION PEOPLE DYING

why are ukrainians so braindead???????



of course it depends where. obviously from your eurocentric shithole point of view yes there are countries with negative birthrates, but i'm talking about the global demographic trend. most models put us at around 9bn by 2050, while we already have massive logistical problems when it comes to feeding and caring for the 7 or so bn we have now.

so what

its their problem not ours, europe is the most important alright

plus theres lotsa food and other resources in the world its all about redistribution that there is something amiss about

when your averange congolese boy goes to the black market he prefers to buy an ak47 to a box of eggs lets face the truth

that's why i said the problem is logistics-based not resource-based. there is plenty of food and medicine for the world, but a lot of it gets wasted

Offline basketweaver
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« Reply #33 on: January 27, 2016 10:13 PM »
Quote
Broader, less ideological movements like Childfree also exist, but many times followers espouse intense misopedia.

I totally agree, fuck those guys. As someone else mentioned earlier ITT, the level of narcissism is unreal.

I think one curious thing about this antinatalist argument is that you're making the entire decision off of the worst case scenario. Can't someone just argue the reverse? I think this is where the argument just reduces down to fundamentally faith-based ideas about the nature of life. What if I wanted to say that, because the highest parts of life are so beautiful, good people (NB: bad people need not apply) should have more children so that they can experience the wonders of living? I mean, there are many schools of thinking (Buddhism and Christianity come to mind) which argue that intense suffering is actually beneficial and conduce to becoming enlightened and living the best possible life.

I think that you basically just have to evaluate whether a given birth is good or bad on a case-by-case basis, looking at the parents' moral quality, genetic health, circumstances, personalities, etc. I don't think that there's an absolute rule at all.

Quote
most any pleasure is contingent on the suffering of another

I'm not sure if I really agree with this. What if I just meditate in my room for 30 minutes and unlock true happiness? I think you can definitely create happiness-utility from thin air.

Offline Bamyasi
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« Reply #34 on: January 27, 2016 11:45 PM »
Oh yeah I mean life definitely isn't all bad, just mostly bad, all things considered. Not even my life just life in general. I think Benatar's asymmetry largely responds to what you're talking about:
  • The presence of pain is bad.
  • The presence of pleasure is good.
  • The absence of pain is good, even if that good is not enjoyed by anyone.
  • The absence of pleasure is not bad unless there is somebody for whom this absence is a deprivation
Quote
most any pleasure is contingent on the suffering of another
I'm not sure if I really agree with this. What if I just meditate in my room for 30 minutes and unlock true happiness? I think you can definitely create happiness-utility from thin air.


(I don't necessarily know enough about meditation or eastern religions to agree with U. G. I just think he's interesting.)

Offline Gladius
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« Reply #35 on: January 28, 2016 06:16 AM »
too bad none of this chat will never matter because ppl in the third world are shitting out dozens of babies into the most appalling life circumstances imaginable and don't care about how "ethical it is to bring another life into this crazy world!!" (lol) and there's nothing u can do about it unless decides to step up his drone strike game
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Offline crackers
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« Reply #36 on: January 28, 2016 08:02 AM »
is almost every single post here satire, cause otherwise most of you are lacking empathy to the point of being psychopaths. I can't believe eugenics was even brought up semi-seriously.

What gives one life the right to take away another's? Intelligence? True intelligence would be recognising that said right shouldn't belong in our civilised society. Pfft

Offline Bamyasi
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« Reply #37 on: January 28, 2016 11:39 AM »
Well I consider eugenics to be the more empathetic position, certainly more than allowing people with horrific diseases like osteogenesis imperfecta to pass them on to their offspring. In my opinion the parents of those people are the violent psychopaths.

I understand though because its pretty much impossible to talk about eugenics rationally due to Nazism, etc.

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« Reply #38 on: January 28, 2016 06:13 PM »
pffft

Offline Bamyasi
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« Reply #39 on: January 28, 2016 06:25 PM »
Literally cannot argue with that.